RT 2010 – The After Show
WARNING – This post is a way off topic rant for my blog.
ETI: WARNING: This post may contain subject matter that may be offensive to some and inappropriate for people under 18 years of age.
Wow! I read Wicked Lil Pixie’s post today along with the comments. Then I followed the link to Dear Author’s relevant post & comments and finally ended up at Antonio’s Blog.
Can I just say that I am truly disappointed in the human race today. People go to the RT Convention, at least for the most part, I’m thinking, to get to meet & greet some of their favorite authors, attend some interesting workshops & panels, and socialize with others who share some of our same interests, which would be reading. Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to attend, but in looking for blog write-up’s about how it was, I found Jackie at Literary Escapism’s blog which was informative and positive and then I find all the rest.
I feel terrible for all the Mr. Romantic Times contestants, models, strippers, etc. Whether or not these men are paid to be there to entertain in whatever capacity they are, there is no excuse to treat any of them like a piece of meat! Sure, maybe there are 1 or 2 in every bunch who’s actions may invite it, but again, do not judge them all by that one or two individuals actions. One or two commentors had it right when they said that if the roles were reversed and we had heard about a large group of men treating a woman that way, well… then we would all be outraged and something would have been done about it.
I probably shouldn’t be writing this post right now because I am fuming just thinking about it. So freakin what if last years pageant winner teared up at the end? Is he not human? Because last I checked, men have emotions to, and yet people want to make fun of him for it? Sad. So freakin what if some of the men are short? There are short, tall, fat, young, old, skinny women too. Do you see those men blogging about all the disgusting drunk fat women who grope them like meat? NO. I spent over 20 years working in bars and have seen my share of Ladies Nights with male dancers. Let me tell you, there is NOTHING lady-like about the women who go to see male dancers! More like a pack of ravening wolves. Many times I was embarrassed to even be a female after witnessing this behaviour. I have also seen my share of bars full of men who are there to see female dancers and no way in hell would that kind of behavior be tolerated towards the female dancers. Talk about double standards!
Then I see people dumping on this guy Antonio for trying to explain his side of the story. It just really pisses me off that just because he’s 1) a man and 2) a dancer/stripper that he gets disrespected or even worse made to feel like he’s less of a person because of his job. I’ve known a lot of strippers over the years and the majority of them are just trying to make a buck. Trying to put themselves through school, trying to pay off loans, trying to support their children, trying to get by in an economy that sucks. For whatever reason they are doing this job, they get lumped into a lower class citizen category and even worse, they are treated as such. They are treated as unintelligent, as egotistical, as unfeeling hunks of “beef” and as promiscuous. Why is that? It boils down to jealousy as far as I can tell and jealousy makes people behave despicably. I have witnessed this time and time again and it’s just sad. It goes both ways. Gorgeous men and women get treated as less than human even though most people think that they get special treatment, or have it easy in life. They have no idea how wrong they are.
On behalf of mature, intelligent, thoughtful, observant and non-judgmental people, I am disappointed in the human race today and I hope that these guys know people like myself who will support them and help them get over what a bunch of small-minded, jealous, ignorant people put them through.
Edited To Include:
I’m not bashing any blogs out there or in any way implying that the RT Convention isn’t a great event. It’s my dream vacation, to be honest. My rant is against anyone who felt the need to imply that these guys in some way deserve to be treated like “meat”.
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About Me
I read Urban Fantasy, Paranormal Romance, Light Fantasy, Young Adult and Graphic Novels in said genres. I’ve also been known to read the odd historical romance if they involve uber-sexy highlanders, vikings or knights & if they involve some time travel and a lot of humor. Heh! 😀 If any Authors, Publicists or Publishers would like their books reviewed or would like to schedule a Guest Blog or Giveaway please contact me at sidhevicious@gmail.com
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Sidhe Vicious Reviews 
At first it was funny, now it’s getting way outta hand. I’ve seen woman do nasty things to men, if the same thing was done to me, the man would be missing a hand. I think he went about it wrong (in terms of commenting on a blog) but it’s like his stories are changing and getting worse, so you don’t know who to believe anymore. Horny housewives are worse than construction workers.
Well, he’s obviously a newbie to conventions & blogs, but it’s not like anyone’s cutting the poor guys any slack. Jeez, if it was women that we were talking about, the double standards would be applied. Of that I have no doubt. I hear ya though.
He says in one thing he felt obligated to take his shirt off? COME ON. Honestly? That’s when I lost him.
If he was under the impression that complying would get him more votes and if he’d already done it earlier and it was acceptable? I get where he’s coming from I guess.
That’s exactly my point you couldn’t have said it better. I was being told that I was going to get votes and once the shirt was off they were telling me they were 100% sure I was going to win and that LL had lots of pull. And as you said my shirtless behavior a few nights earlier was tolerated and ultimately deemed appropriate. So I wasn’t sure how to act so I just went along with it. I figured I had already taken 80 shirtless pics so I didn’t think 4 or 5 would be a huge deal. The unfair part of the situation is I thought I was doing something that would help my chances of winning the competition. I didn’t realize the pictures were going to be passed around at breakfast the next day, and ultimately hurt my chances
I can totally see where you’re coming from and it’s sad that what was probably meant just to be a fun get together turned into a situation that was taken advantage of.
It truly sucks that this happened to you and I have no advice other than Live & Learn. I hope it doesn’t sour your view of the RT Convention or the Romance/Urban Fantasy community. The actions of a few shouldn’t reflect on all of the wonderful people who are involved in the con or who are a part of the Romance/Urban Fantasy community.
I guess people have a hard time viewing all sides of the situation because they have a hard time imagining themselves to “walk a mile in your shoes”.
Ugh then thats even worse IMHO. Taking clothing off for votes? EEP.
Well, they are in it to win it right? And if he was asked to take his shirt off for “promoting” himself or EC or whatever earlier, why would he think that there’s anything wrong with it?
Well, I haven’t read all the details so I’m going to refrain from speaking about something of which I know not. But I definitely agree that women are terrible when they get in a pack and start hollerin at men. Jeez. It’s like they turn into rabid sex monkeys. Maybe if more women were familiar with vibrators this wouldn’t be a problem…..
LMAO! Thanks Queen B, I enjoyed your comment. 😀 I just get so riled up when I see that pack mentality attitude against people who are stereotyped into a category of human being.
Thank you for this. I realized who the ‘little girl’ was that posted the blog for DEAR AUTHOR. She is one of those people who dont like covermodels and bashes them. I kinda met her last year and she was very rude to me. This year, she walked around with a sucker in her mouth and her nose in the air. It is sad that peole who are unhappy try to bring others down to thier level of saddness by bashing them.
But once again, Thank you for this Blog. It is appreciated
You’re welcome Charles.
I was not at the event or con, nor have I met any of the people who are posting/commenting about this. It just brasses me off when I see anyone being treated with no respect what-so-ever because of what they do for a living.
I don’t care if it’s a model, an actor, a stripper or a waiter for that matter. And God Forbid if they should have the tenacity to actually, wait for it… speak up for themselves! And just because you guys tried to provide an explanation, there’s an even bigger discrimination going against you? It’s a sad world when it’s deemed ok to discriminate against some but not others.
Apparently, it’s ok for some people to state their opinion but not for others? Why is there even a distinction? If you put a “statement out there”, then be prepared for some people to disagree. Also, for those who are unclear on this, there are also ways to disagree politely. It is possible to disagree in a mature, polite, concise manner without slinging insults, innuendoes or “mud”.
Apparently, it’s ok to take one or two lines of someone’s statement out of context and to throw them out there in a manner meant to ridicule them? You know what? Read the whole paragraph that those words were in! Hell, how about reading the sentence or two before those words? I think it’s blatantly clear what those words were in reference to.
Now I am really pissed off because apart from the snide comments, insults flying around on twitter, and words being taken out of context, the whole point of my post is being lost! I do NOT appreciate being made to feel that I am not entitled to have an opinion if it differs from someone else’s. This blog post is about discrimination towards anyone for any reason. Talk about cyber-bullying! I thought we humans were supposed to be an evolved species. For some, this is sadly not so.
I do not care if you are a man, a woman, tall, short, black, red, blue, green or white. I do not care if you are a doctor, a maid, a lawyer, a landscaper, a waitress, an astronaut, a stripper, a construction worker or a Nobel Prize winner. I do not care if you are sraight, gay or bi. If you are fat, skinny, fit, old, young or handi-capped. I do not care if you are rich or poor, good looking or not so good looking. I do not care if you are a woman wearing a mini-skirt, shorts or bikini in public. I do not care if a man takes his shirt off or wears shorts in public. I do not care if a man or woman invites people to lick whip-cream, do a shot, or whatever on their person for fun. I do not care if you use your brain, your artistic creativity, your body or your skills as a trade worker to make a living.
What I DO care about is someone, and that could be anyone, being treated as “less” than someone else. Period! In this case, it’s in regards to a couple of guys who model or dance, but I would be just as offended if it were a woman in a mini-skirt being discriminated against, someone in a wheel-chair being discriminated against, someone from another country who doesn’t speak English being discriminated against. ANYONE being discriminated against based on their: education, vocation, race, age, sex or religion. We are all human beings with conscious thoughts and feelings and to treat anyone with less respect than you would like to be treated with is not only wrong, it’s ignorant.
So are we all clear now on what my blog post is and isn’t about? If you disagree with me, I welcome all comments if they are stated in a respectful manner. I can appreciate that everyone is entitled to an opinion and welcome respectful, intelligent debate on the topic.
Thank you for a wonderfully worded post. As I said at the other blog, I met all of this year’s contestants, as well as Charles, and overall they were a group of really great guys (*shrug* I don’t get along with everyone, but that’s okay :P). They were sweet guys who put up with a lot on a crazy schedule, and they did it with smiles on their faces.
What happened to Antonio isn’t the only bad thing that went on this year; it’s just the one people have heard about. I would like to hope that the women responsible for those incidents were out-numbered by friendly people.
I won’t say I’m disappointed in the human race, just in the small percentage who thinks stuff like that is okay. They disgust me.
Thank you Julie for your thoughts.
When I say that I am dissapointed in the human race, it’s meant to be aimed at the people who discriminate based on what a person does for a living, etc.
I’ve known a lot of models, body builders, fitness competitors, strippers, dancers, waitress’s and waiters in my life and it really sets me off when I hear of them being treated like “meat”. Yes, there are some who “live” the job, but for the most part, it’s JUST a job where they play a role. I’ve also known lawyers, office workers and people who work in a “professional” career who were totally morally corrupt, yet people don’t treat them like “meat” even though they act or live the part.
It’s nice to hear from someone who sees them as “sweet guys” and not just what they do for a living. 🙂
I get that. I just feel like the women who acted badly at the con reflected on all of us, and that bothers me. (Not as much as the way they treated the guys bothers me, but still bothers me.)
I hope people start realizing that the men who step up to do this are people too.
Bravo Julie, well put, though I don’t think it reflects on all of the lovely ladies at the con. Anyone with some intelligence knows that the actions of one or a few does not reflect the actions of many or all. Everybody is responsible for their own behaviour, especially if they’re adults.
I also hope that people start realizing the men who step in to model, dance, strip, wait tables or socialize are people too.
it seems every year there is “drama” surrounding RT because of the pageant. Better off to have a panel or a talk instead.
I hear you. I think it’s inevitable that wherever a large group of adults with access to alcohol is, there is bound to be drama regardless of whether or not there hot men/hot women hired to be there as entertainment.
Oh, so are we now concluding that the women at RT were indeed treating Mr Angeletti like a piece of meat?
Because this is what Antonio posted on Dear Author:
And in response to his post, I asked him this:
Thanks for commenting Karen.
I am in NO WAY implying anything about all the ladies at RT. So your statement, “Oh, so are we now concluding that the women at RT were indeed treating Mr Angeletti like a piece of meat?” is incorrect. Nowhere in my rant did I state or imply that the rant was being directed towards the women at RT. My rant is geared towards the individuals who did treat or even think of Anotonio or Charles or any of the men there like pieces of meat and at the people who implied in their comments that he deserves to be treated that way because he is a dancer. Nor is my rant aimed at the Dear Author post or Wicked Lil Pixies post. It’s SOME of the comments that I read on those blogs that got me all riled up.
I agree that it’s a terrible shame that a prominent author had her name dragged through the mud. I’m not clear on who exactly brought her name into it in the comments other than some unknown commenter named “Jack”, which Antonio denied having posted. Only the mods at Dear Author would know for sure based on the IP address. The only people who know for sure what happened up in that room are the people who were actually up there. This also isn’t what my rant was about.
My rant also wasn’t pointed towards how Antonio was treated while he was up in that room. That is not what I take issue with. If he was asked to or invited some flirting or flirtful poses in pictures, then that remains their business as they are all adults correct? My issue is with the attitude that’s been projected by some commenters, in the sense of “he deserves to be treated like meat because he’s a stripper”. That right there is what pisses me off!
You said, “So my first point is, if you’re gonna post a rant defending somebody’s honour, it may be an idea to check that they at least have their story straight, so that you know where to aim the arrow.”
I have nothing to do with all the comments that Antonio posted though it was pretty obvious to me that this young man was flustered, upset and feeling attacked. So it makes sense to me that he was a bit all over the place. I think the whole thing was overwhelming to him, though I could be wrong as I don’t know him, but that’s what I got from his comments. Let’s also keep in mind that he isn’t a “wordsmith” like a lot of us are. My point is that I am not defending his comments, I never was. My rant wasn’t even really meant to be defending him persay, it is more about the injustice of anyone being discriminted against or judged by what they do for a living, which I did see in the comments.
You also said, “And can I also add, if you strip for a living in front of women or men, you are going to be treated like a piece of meat, because in essence, you’re giving those men/women permission to treat you like a piece of meat. Like it or lump it, that kind of treatment comes with the territory. And if you don’t like it, then surely it’s time for a swift career change?
If this was a female lapdancer objecting to being treated like a piece of meat (and I’m not saying that that is what Mr Angeletti does for a living, by any means), seriously, how much sympathy would you be giving her right now?”
I do take great issue with this. In no way does stripping in front of men or women give them the right to treat the stripper like a peice of meat. Absolutely not! They may want to think of the stripper that way, but it does NOT give anyone the right to treat them like meat. Stripping or should I say strippers provide an entertainment service to feed into people’s fantasies. Period. It’s no different than a hot love scene in a great book feeding the reader’s fantasy, or a hot love scene in a movie fueling viewer fantasies. It’s fantasy fueled entertainment but there is still a real human being with a life, family, friends, hobbies, and real feelings behind the image they present at their job. And yes, if it were a female lap dancer being lumped into the “she’s just a peice of meat” category, I would definitely be outraged by it as well.
I think it’s the person or people who are being entertained who want to classify strippers as a piece of meat to make themselves feel better about enjoying something that is generally socially frowned upon. If they think of strippers that way instead of as a human being who is somebody’s son or daughter, somebody’s brother or sister, or somebody’s mother or father, then they don’t feel guilty about having all those dirty thoughts. But THAT attitude, the one that considers a stripper “a peice of meat” is the person’s issue to deal with and NOT the strippers/models role to play.
I didn’t say it was right, but I can certainly understand how somebody faced with a pair of boobs or a penis in their face might be led to only see the the body parts, rather than the owner who the body parts belong to.
I’m sorry, but if I’m in a strip club having some bloke waving his wanger at me, I’m not going to be thinking about his mother, his father, or the fact that he may have siblings, whilst I’m stuffing a twenty dollar bill down the front of his thongs, I’m really not, and actually, I don’t have to. That’s kind of the point, and I think it’s a bit disingenuous to suggest otherwise. (Seriously, this would not be my idea of a good night out in any way shape or form).
Being treated as if you’re indeed nothing more than a piece of meat, in that line of work, comes with the territory, and it might not be right, but you have to know that it’s also inevitable. And those who work within that arena are usually fully aware of this. Real life is rarely fair, and expecting people who visit stripclubs to be as fair-minded as you are, is highly unrealistic.
I never said that the person who is sitting there watching/tipping strippers should be thinking of the strippers parents/siblings/children while the stripper is right there in front of them. They should be enjoying the entertainment for what it is: entertainment and fantasy fulfillment.
What I did say is that the “customer” SHOULD think twice before TREATING that person like a peice of meat, or assuming the attitude that they are just a peice of meat and thinking that this is ok in any way. The customer does have a brain, and granted, it might not be firing at full capacity while the visual senses are in overload, but it doesn’t ever justify treating a stripper like a hunk of unfeeling, unthinking beef.
I’m fully aware that people in the modelling, exotic entertainer, wait staff or entertainment industries are more than conscious of some people thinking of them as nothing more than peices of meat, and sad as that is, I’m also aware that it’s the norm.
We are also off topic here, because Antonio WASN’T in a strip club or shaking his wanker in anyone’s face when confronted with the attitude that he’s just a piece of meat. He was commenting on an open forum online.
What people do need to remember is that he is a person, not his job, and to treat him with a modicum of respect. Mayhap the repect that they would like to be treated with.
Just for comparisons sake, I know that sometimes romance or genre authors aren’t given the respect due to them by the literary community because “romance” or “mass market” or “genre” fiction is viewed as fluff and not real literature. That’s total bull in my opinion and I take issue with that attitude as well. If I saw a few people ragging on romance/genre authors, or treating them as less intelligent or less deserving of respect than “literary authors”, I would defend my opinion as to how wrong that is too.
So just because some think that way, should romance/genre authors be ok with that attitude or treatment? Should they expect it? I think not!
To be fair, this conversation has gone off topic quite a number of times already, mostly instigated by Mr Angeletti.
Let me deconstruct some parts of your original post, since you claim that your ire wasn’t aimed at anybody other than those who would treat another human like a piece of meat.
You posted:
There isn’t actually any evidence that the Mr Romance contestants were treated like pieces of meat. So far we only have Angeletti’s change-with-the-weather testimony, and even that can’t be trusted because he already admitted that nothing untowards was going on. Thus your sympathy for the Mr Romance men seems to be moot at this point.
You also wrote this:
This is yet another indication that your annoyance was indeed aimed at the RT women who allegedly sexually harassed him. Again, Angeletti admitted that this was a fictional account of events, and thus should be dismissed.
Another quote from your blog post:
You indicated that your comments weren’t directed at Dear Author, however the above comment clearly shows that you were angry at what you perceived to be a slight against the Mr Romance contestants. For the sake of ‘fairness’, this is what was written up at DA:
All the above seemed to be mere observations, with a little bit of acerbic wit thrown in, this is a Dear Author staple though, so this shouldn’t surprise anybody. The reference to Mr Paz being short was so throwaway that I admit to some puzzlement over that and your comparison to the “disgustingly drunk fat women” at RT. I thought that comment was very revealing if I’m honest, because it gives an indication as to how you perhaps, sub-consciously, view the average romance reader. This certainly isn’t conclusive, and may be totally innacurate, but you know how easy it is for words to be taken the wrong way.
You also wrote:
Dumping on Antonio? Nowhere is it written that a person has the right to express his/her opinion without bing challenged, and the fact is Antonio waded in with his size tens and just let rip. So what, people shouldn’t have challenged him about the accusations he was making? People shouldn’t have questioned him about the fact that his version of events changed more times than a whore’s knickers? That would be like suggesting that you had no right to post this OP.
Antonio is a grown-assed man, so if he’s going to come out all guns blazing, he should be prepared for bullets coming back at him, regardless of the fact that he’s a man, and a stripper. Should he be granted special dispensation from mockery because he strips for a living? I think not. If you act like an arse, there are people who will call you on it, no matter what your job is.
To get back on topic, neither of us have any proof that Angeletti or any other contestant was treated like a piece of meat, so your original post although well-meaning, is directionally-challenged due to the changing landscape of this conversation. I know you say otherwise, but it certainly seems to me that your rage was mostly aimed at firstly, the RT women, and secondly, Dear Author and the commenters who refused to accept Mr Angeletti’s version of events at face value, like you seem to have done.
You’re asking the wrong person, I expect non-Rom people to be snooty towards Rom Readers, but it’s not something that I care about. Everybody’s entitled to their opinion, and if somebody looks down on me because I read romance, that’s their problem, not mine, and I certainly wont get my knickers in a knot over it.
You said: “To be fair, this conversation has gone off topic quite a number of times already, mostly instigated by Mr Angeletti.”
–I don’t agree with that statement at all. I saw more than a few comments that took off on a tangent. Laying the majority of the blame on any one individual at this point is moot.
You Said: “Let me deconstruct some parts of your original post, since you claim that your ire wasn’t aimed at anybody other than those who would treat another human like a piece of meat.”
My Post: “I feel terrible for all the Mr. Romantic Times contestants, models, strippers, etc. Whether or not these men are paid to be there to entertain in whatever capacity they are, there is no excuse to treat any of them like a piece of meat!”
You Said: “There isn’t actually any evidence that the Mr Romance contestants were treated like pieces of meat. So far we only have Angeletti’s change-with-the-weather testimony, and even that can’t be trusted because he already admitted that nothing untowards was going on. Thus your sympathy for the Mr Romance men seems to be moot at this point.”
–I’m pretty sure that most people reading this would have understood that this was a generalization as to the attitudes of a few towards men or some of the men who work in those positions. If read as a part of the whole post, then it’s made fairly obvious. But if you want to take a couple of sentences out of the whole and read what you want into it, then so be it.
–My sympathy towards the Mr Romance men comes in when the attitude towards one or more of them involves them being seen as not worthy of being treated as anything more than a piece of meat! So yes, it does apply whether it was at the actual event or on a public forum afterwards of which there is evidence.
My Post: “One or two commentors had it right when they said that if the roles were reversed and we had heard about a large group of men treating a woman that way, well… then we would all be outraged and something would have been done about it.”
You Said: “This is yet another indication that your annoyance was indeed aimed at the RT women who allegedly sexually harassed him. Again, Angeletti admitted that this was a fictional account of events, and thus should be dismissed.”
–No, actually, it’s not! I made no mention of RT in that statement. It’s again, a generalization that if a large group of men at any kind of event were to treat a woman that way, then we would all be outraged. Please do not put words where I haven’t. And I believe that Angelletti actually said that someone else’s version of the events in that room were fictionalized, not that it never occured. He was in fact invited up to that room. He was in fact asked to take off his shirt to take some “posed” photos with the understanding that it would garner him more votes because that was what was said to him prior to him removing his shirt. That is not fiction, so you’re trying to use that as an argumentative point is what should be dismissed.
Another quote from my blog post:
“So freakin what if last years pageant winner teared up at the end? Is he not human? Because last I checked, men have emotions to, and yet people want to make fun of him for it? Sad. So what if some of the men are short? There are short, tall, fat, young, old, skinny women too. Do you see those men blogging about all the disgusting drunk fat women who grope them like meat?”
You Said: “You indicated that your comments weren’t directed at Dear Author, however the above comment clearly shows that you were angry at what you perceived to be a slight against the Mr Romance contestants. For the sake of ‘fairness’, this is what was written up at DA:”
“There were only 6 Mr. Romance contestants. I heard four didn’t show up and at least three were last minute additions including one who referred to this as another “dance gig.”…
…Mr. Romance 2009, Charles Paz?, got up on stage and began lamenting the mean girl bloggers of 2009 who posted his picture and made comments about his person suggesting that perhaps he was not their vision of a cover model for romance books. Apparently this affected Charles so adversely that he was unable to get out of bed…
…Charles then broke down and started crying, sobbing almost. In fact, there were more tears shed on stage of Mr. Romance 2010 than at the last Miss America pageant (more cogent answers at the Miss America pageant as well). You mean girl bloggers, ruining everything. (As an aside, no one I talked to even remembered seeing posts about the winner from 2009. All I could remember was that he was short in 2009 and he is still short today).”
You Said: “All the above seemed to be mere observations, with a little bit of acerbic wit thrown in, this is a Dear Author staple though, so this shouldn’t surprise anybody. The reference to Mr Paz being short was so throwaway that I admit to some puzzlement over that and your comparison to the “disgustingly drunk fat women” at RT. I thought that comment was very revealing if I’m honest, because it gives an indication as to how you perhaps, sub-consciously, view the average romance reader. This certainly isn’t conclusive, and may be totally innacurate, but you know how easy it is for words to be taken the wrong way.”
–To you they may be “mere observations”, but to the people they are being said about, I highly doubt it! And obviously the reference to Mr Paz being short wasn’t a throwaway comment because it was referenced in the comments by both Mr Paz and Mr Angeletti and possibly by others.
–Where in my post do I refer to the “disgustingly drunk fat women” as being the RT attendees? These men are confronted with women like that ALL the time, whether they are patrons in a bar, working in a bar, or stripping in a club. My only point I was trying to make with that statement is that you don’t see these men blogging about it do you? Because you have to be realistic and know that they can’t possibly really enjoy the attentions from every single woman that wants to hang off them or grope them, especially the ones they don’t find attractive. They accept those attentions for some form of compensation. And where exactly did I say that “I think that the women at RT are Disgusting, fat, drunk women?” Because I never said that! Yes, I do know how easily words can be taken the wrong way because you seem to have an affinity for doing it along with twisting them into meaning what they don’t.
–I very obviously have a high opinion of the average romance reader seeing as how I am one, which you would know had you ever frequented my blog before this post. And just to be clear, I am also over-weight, so I have nothing against large women either.
–I have no issues with Dear Author’s acerbic style whilst blogging or I wouldn’t have had a link to them in my sidebar for the last two years!
–Yes, I read their post, as I stated, and I read all the comments. That is where I found issue with the contestants being picked on for such petty things such as their height and for getting emotional at the pageant.
My Post: “Then I see people dumping on this guy Antonio for trying to explain his side of the story. It just really pisses me off that just because he’s 1) a man and 2) a dancer/stripper that he gets disrespected or even worse made to feel like he’s less of a person because of his job.”
You Said: “Dumping on Antonio? Nowhere is it written that a person has the right to express his/her opinion without bing challenged, and the fact is Antonio waded in with his size tens and just let rip. So what, people shouldn’t have challenged him about the accusations he was making? People shouldn’t have questioned him about the fact that his version of events changed more times than a whore’s knickers? That would be like suggesting that you had no right to post this OP.
Antonio is a grown-assed man, so if he’s going to come out all guns blazing, he should be prepared for bullets coming back at him, regardless of the fact that he’s a man, and a stripper. Should he be granted special dispensation from mockery because he strips for a living? I think not. If you act like an arse, there are people who will call you on it, no matter what your job is.”
–Again, you misconstrue my meaning. I never stated that people don’t have the right to disagree with what Antonio said. Anyone has the right to do so. What I found disagreeable was the prevalent attitude that he wasn’t entitled to try and defend himself and that he was being treated that way BY SOME, because of what he does for a living. Also, and I could be wrong because I really don’t have the time to look right now, it’s my recollection that he didn’t “come out all guns ablazing.” It was after the first comment or two that he made trying to defend himself against a comment someone made about him, after that is when things took a down-hill turn. If you think it’s ok to mock someone based on what YOU think is being an arse, then by all means continue to do so, you only show your true colors by it.
You Said: “To get back on topic, neither of us have any proof that Angeletti or any other contestant was treated like a piece of meat, so your original post although well-meaning, is directionally-challenged due to the changing landscape of this conversation. I know you say otherwise, but it certainly seems to me that your rage was mostly aimed at firstly, the RT women, and secondly, Dear Author and the commenters who refused to accept Mr Angeletti’s version of events at face value, like you seem to have done.”
–You could not be more wrong, though you’re entitled to your opinion. And yes, there is proof that Angeletti and some or all of the contestants are thought of and/or treated like pieces of meat. Let me refer to Shiloh Walkers’ comment in which she states that she heard it on good authority “that one woman at the con shoved her hand in the model’s pants!!??” And I would bet my last dollar that this was not an isolated incident. My initial proof is within the comments left on blog posts, in that Mr Angeletti was invited up to a room and asked to take his shirt off for some photos, and in the attitude shown in some of the tweets that are posted during the actual pageant.
–And if I still haven’t stated it clearly enough for you, my ire is directed at anyone and everyone that is small-minded enough, ignorant enough, rude enough or egotistical enough to think that any human being regardless of sex, age, vocation, race, education, etc DESERVES to be treated like a piece of meat.
My Post: “So just because some think that way, should romance/genre authors be ok with that attitude or treatment? Should they expect it? I think not!”
You Said: “You’re asking the wrong person, I expect non-Rom people to be snooty towards Rom Readers, but it’s not something that I care about. Everybody’s entitled to their opinion, and if somebody looks down on me because I read romance, that’s their problem, not mine, and I certainly wont get my knickers in a knot over it.”
–Well, that’s telling isn’t it? That you expect non-Rom people to be snooty towards Rom Writers or readers. Just because you expect it doesn’t make it right or acceptable does it? Nor does it mean that other romance readers or writers are ok with that negative attitude coming from anyone or anywhere. I don’t get my knickers in a bunch over it, I stand up for what I believe to be an injustice and an undeserved one at that. Ignorance only perpetuates more ignorance as far as I’m concerned.
Sidhevicious, I never get into people mocking anybody, for anything. I’ve never been a fan of it, and I never will be.
However, I was also kind of clear that when the models, or rather, one in particular, goes around doing certain things, it’s going to cause some blurred lines. If one is strutting around and going up to women in lines and then bending over and letting then whack him on the butt-yes, I *saw* this-and 200, 300 hundred women see this…well, you can have a couple of different reactions.
Me, I roll my eyes and wish the guy would remember he IS there in a professional capacity.
You can have a number of women who feel uncomfortable.
You can have a number of women who think it’s fun and sexy.
But then you’re going to have some women who look at the guy and think he’s there for one thing-sexual entertainment.
Is that last option right? No. Is it acceptable? No.
But it blurs the lines of what is and isn’t acceptable, and considering how out of hands some things have gotten at events in the past, the lines of what is and isn’t acceptable really should be pretty damn clear.
I’m sorry if any of the cover models have been made to feel like they are nothing but toys to be played with-they are people and should be treated as such.
However, I’m not overly impressed with arguments of “I took my shirt off to be polite,” and that crap-I’m just not.
He wants to be treated with respect, and as a human being, and certainly, he’s worthy of that.
But he also likes to turn things around. He told several variations of his story on Dear Author and when I tried to figure out which was which, suddenly, I’m saying that removing clothing is a mortal sin, then naturally, I’m too intimidated to go to strip shows (um, yes, I’m going to die laughing at the thought of some guy intimidating me), then after that, I’m brainless and jealous?
I’m sorry those guys, especially Charles-cuz he seems like a sweetheart, are getting ragged on.
But Antonio is just digging his own hole by switching/changing his stories around and when people call him on it, he attacks.
Thanks for stopping by Shiloh, I appreciate your input. 🙂
I can totally understand the different reactions that a large group of women could have to a model or dancer behaving that way in a public place. I can also appreciate that it could blur the lines for some. But can I ask you this, does that one model represent every model?
I find it hard to believe that at an event where alcohol is served that none of the women behave inappropriately. Should all the authors then be judged on one or two authors’ actions? Should non-authors come too the conclusion that because one author acted morally loose or whatever that they all should be treated like meat or drunks or there for sexual or whatever kind of entertainment?
It’s the mind-set that I oppose. That anyone should be judged based on the actions of one or two, or by what they do for a living.
I think that most people would attempt to defend themselves when being attacked, and some of us may be able to sort out our thoughts and put it into words better than others. I agree that he maybe should have given himself time to cool down or organize his responses a bit better before replying to comments, but again, I never was trying to defend him or his comments. I was only ranting about a certain attitude or treatment towards him based on what he does for a living.
I try to only judge people by the actions they display, so no, the actions of one shouldn’t represent the actions of all, certainly.
As to defending himself-eh, I’m all for one defending myself when the need arises and when I’m ticked, I’m not always as clear as I should be. But I rarely change my story-but that’s what he did.
As to your next comment-no, there is no justification in treating a stripper, or anybody like a hunk of meat. I don’t like it when anybody is objectified and I don’t care who it is, or what their sex is.
I still think one clear way to help avoid problems like this in the future is to establish clear lines-what is and isn’t okay, for the models AND for the attendees.
Two years, I had one of the models decide it was ‘acceptable’ for him to go stroking down my back-way too low, and way too intimate, and trust me, I very much give off a touch me not vibe-I damn near punched him.
I heard (from a reliable source) another model had a woman stick her hand down the front of his pants.
With crap like this going on, these lines NEED to be established, and they need to be adhered to.
None of the attendees have any right to treat the models like a piece of meat, but the models-all of them-need to make sure they are ‘demanding’ the respectful treatment they deserve.
As for me, the next time some idiot puts a hand on me, I am decking him. :0/
All good points! 🙂
I agree on that he shouldn’t have been changing his story because it does make him look unreliable. I too rarely change my story.
He he, I hear you on the impulse to deck a man that gets too gropey for my liking. You go girl! I’ve been there before.
And just to clarify or pontificate on the subject some more…
Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy drooling/fantasizing over hot men, hot photos, etc as much as the next gal. I do. Heck, I used to date men that looked like that back when I was still young and hot. But I never could stomach the way that some people think it’s ok to treat them.
There is no justification for treating another human being like a piece of meat. Whether they are a stripper, a lap dancer, a waiter, a model or whatever. I don’t care if they act in a suggestive manner as part of their job entertaining.
I’ve seen thousands of drunk, stupid 20 year old girls acting in a suggestive manner too. Does that make it ok for any man to go up and treat her with no respect or like a piece of meat? Should she expect men to treat her that way if she gets drunk? Is she less intelligent for getting drunk even though more than likely some man will take advantage of her if he can?
What makes it ok in some minds to treat a stripper like a hunk of unfeeling, unthinking, unintelligent beef but not some drunk 20 year old woman? The problem here lies not with the stripper or drunk 20 year old. The problem is with the mindset of the person who thinks it’s ok to treat them like so much meat. That’s the person with questionable moral values and who needs to adjust their attitude.
Maybe if we all gave ourselves a check before assuming that it’s ok to treat anyone, regardless of the circumstance, with less respect than we would like, the world really would be a better place! No I haven’t gone insane and think that this is likely to happen anytime soon, but maybe in discussing it, a few more minds will be open to the idea.
BTW, when i say ‘demanding’ the respectful treatment they deserve, one clear way to do that is through your own attitude and behavior.
If you make treat others with respect, and make it clear you expect them to do the same, and you make it clear you’re not going to be treating as nothing more than a sexualized object…that’s one way to help keep those lines clear. Or clearer, at least.
I agree. The respect needs to be shown and demanded by both sides. Ideally, respect would be shown to anyone who “misbehaves” regardless of their behaviour, job or general drunkenness, but that’s wishing for a lot, lol.
Good Post. Antonio sent me the link.
Thanks Malia!
I popped over to your blog and damn near spit my tea all over my computer laughing! May I just say that I like your style and will be continuing to read your posts. 😀
Hello, I am a new follower of your blog and starting a new blog of my own, when I came across yours.
In an earlier comment you stated:
“And if I still haven’t stated it clearly enough for you, my ire is directed at anyone and everyone that is small-minded enough, ignorant enough, rude enough or egotistical enough to think that any human being regardless of sex, age, vocation, race, education, etc DESERVES to be treated like a piece of meat.”
I completely agree with all of your statements about people treating strippers/dancers like peices of meat whether they are male or female. It enrages me to see this type of behavior anywhere, expecially when one is trying to work for a living. People think down on strippers because of what they do, but in reality they could be sitting at home on the couch on welfare or workmans compensation of some sort and using the taxpayers money to get by, but these people take this kind of job so they can make an honest living! No one appriciates being harrassed at work, them included!
I don’t really know anything about the pagent that you were all talking about so I don’t have any comments on that but I just came across your blog from bloggers on Librarything and wanted to introduce myself, give my opinion and tell you how wonderful I find your blog and how refreshing I find your honesty.
Thanks Melody! It means a lot to know that my opinions and honesty are appreciated by others. If you ever have any questions about blogging, feel free to shoot me an email. I wish you much fun & success with your blog. 🙂
I think that a lot of people are actually somewhat ignorant of what strippers actually do and don’t do, which is where the unfortunate stereotyping comes into play. It ticks me off that people treat them badly just because they don’t agree with what they do for a living, and usually those that are the most rude are the ones who really don’t have their facts straight.
As someone who attended RT I would like to respond with the following. THIS WHOLE THING IS RIDULIOUS!!
Antonio changed his story several times. In one of his last posts He mentions all the players in an attempt at an apology. I think someone explained the Legal implications of his statements and he is backpeddling as fast as he can.
As far as the other parties are concern isn’t it interesting that they don’t consider this mess that Antonio created worth talking about. Yea for them.
As a side note, if something had really happend then the RT staff, or the Publisher or the police would have been involved.
If I was the Author in question, I would already have my laywer working on this, and heads would roll. This is her business, her reputation and her income that is being dragged though the mud.
I think this matter needs to be over.
I suppose that people are still discussing or debating the matter because they want to know what really happened. That or they just enjoy debating both sides of an issue online.
My original rant and subsequent posts in the comments are all in relation to how these men are treated, viewed, judged, etc. on the blogs, in comments because of what they do for a living. That’s what set me off. I was not at RT, nor do I have anything bad to say about the con. I wish I could go to one! I also have nothing bad to say about any authors at the con, as again, I was not there and I am a huge fan of a lot of the authors who attend.
I know that all the different comments are subject to interpretation, but it was the comments and general attitude of a few people in those comments towards these men that ticked me off. I’ve seen it more times than I care to count and I felt the need to express my opinion at the injustice of it. In expressing my opinion about how models, dancers, etc are treated, I’m not passing judgement on any specific individual, it’s just a general ire towards anyone who treats them like so much “meat”.
Just want to say what a great blog you got here!
I’ve been around for quite a lot of time, but finally decided to show my appreciation of your work!
Thumbs up, and keep it going!
Cheers
Christian